deputy125

more to the subject, is there a point of diminishing returns with all of the latest and greatest scientific "break-thru's" in technology?

I know that as far as a defensive round, we all seek the "best" possible round that there is to try to reach that magical level of penetration, weight, and expansion. We have ballistics thrown at us right and left, various testing from phone books to water traps to jello.

Sales pitches abound with beautiful photography of loaded ammo and expanded bullets. Colorful eye-catching packaging. And the various "experts" on television that throw in their two cents..........experts who thru their previous experiences most likely used govt or pd older technology issue ammo to begin with.......but give glowing testimonials of their opinions on the new stuff.

It sort of strikes me like fishing lures........there is a size/shape/color out there that basicly is not really designed to catch fish.........its first and foremost design feature is to get purchased......the fish catching comes later.

This is what i mean......

we have the premium side of life such as
hornady CQ tap
winchester bonded supreme elite
corbon power ball and dpx
federal premium personal defense
remington "ultimate home defense"


seems that just a few years back speer gold dot, federal hydroshock, hornady xtp, corbon "vanilla" and remington golden sabre were the suposedly top dogs in the hunt.

I do not have an answer to this question...........i fully realize that compared to the 70's and 80's, handgun rounds have indeed improved in design.....especially for bottom feeders.......but are the improvments that they keep hawking today, are they really miles ahead of ammo issued a decade back, or are they just a hair better and an exploitated prices?....are they really any better at all? Does one jump on the band wagon looking for advertised improvment or stick with what has been proven over time.........

Has it got to the point of gimmick selling to garner interest much like bass lures?

The catch is that it is my tail on the line.......and i look for all the help i can get ballistic wise in my chosen caliber.......but are the advertised returns on improvment really there over the gold dots and sabres of old? Or are the percentage improvments so small that it really does not effect the final outcome?

Is this just a marketing ploy?

Thank-goodness for the simplicity of the proven revolver loads........but i do have that 9mm ruger to feed now......think i'll just find me some federal vanilla 9bp hp's and be done with it..the 9bp had a fair track record and a reputation of feeding in about any auto......has for years...of course they have changed the name of that now to "personal defense".......rekon that justifies the price increase?

Machinist

A good point, Deputy. I am sure there are many opinions on the matter. Here is mine.

I do think there is a point of diminishing returns in the premium ammo field but there is still progress to be made as well. As you say, there has been definite improvement in bullet design in the past few decades. It used to be that no bullet expanded reliably at subsonic velocities and many loads that tried to address that with ultra light high velocity hollow points like SuperVel could give inconsistent results, either blowing up without penetrating or not opening and punching through with little effect. The newer designs are much better at opening reliably at pistol velocities with controlled expansion that gives reliable penetration, but no one has achieved the perfect balance yet. The two biggest areas of concern now seem to be clogging of the hollow point resulting in failure to expand or fragmentation/ separation that limits penetration. The newest loads are addressing these and seem to be making progress. More is needed before we stop working on these issues, I think.

One of the factors to consider in deciding if the newest bullets are worth the premium cost is the power level of the cartridge. A cartridge with marginal energy budget like the 9mm needs the best bullet design and load balance possible, there is just not enough in reserve should the balance shift either way. This is why the subsonics, which were intended to boost penetration, have shown poor results as they lack energy transfer. The really dynamic loads like the 90 grain Corbon lack penetration for reliable results in service use. With a more powerful load like the .40 or .45, there is enough extra power available in both areas so that optimum bullet performance is less critical as long as it functions properly. Because of this I would say that the high tech bullets are worthwhile once they are proven, in calibers like 9mm or .38 Special. With cartridges like the .40 and .45 I feel good with last generation bullets like Hydra-shok or Gold Dot until the newest are well proven and come down in price. With cartridges like the 125 grain .357 Magnum from 4" or longer barrels the conventional hollow points seem to work well and I would be comfortable with any proven load, though the newer bullets like Gold Dots do offer some advantage in bullet behavior.

In many calibers the difference in price between good ammo and the top of the line seems to be three to five times the price. I find this hard to justify in most cases. In most popular calibers there is good ammo in the lower half of the price range. I used to pay top dollar for my carry ammo. I bit the bullet and fired enough to prove the gun I would use and then practiced with cheaper stuff. I still think it is worth buying the best for the .45 as low velocity cartridges but the severest demands on the bullets to give top performance. In higher velocity cartridges like the .40 I am comfortable with name brand police ammo at much lower prices. If I was carrying a 9mm I would be inclined to go with premium ammo again because bullet performance is again critical, though for different reasons than the .45 ACP.

Short barreled .38s are another area where newer bullets have greatly improved performance but more progress is needed. There just isn't enough power available for any bullet yet to give optimum performance.

jody johnson

Interesting comments...performance indicating worth or effectiveness is determined after documented usage, as we all know...with long term studies such as those done by Marshall and Sanow over time being of much value.

Heck, I kinda like the "tried and true" stuff for personal use and, like you, wonder "what is and what ain't!" about all the new products. Is the increased cost really, when all's "said n' done", worth paying? I understand that R&D is a costly process, but still...

I, too, like the "old" Federal 9BP and quite recently bought some from "ammunitiontogo.com", located in Brenham, Texas. It is that round that I...and others I know...use and trust for personal use. The track record is there, over time...just like the "old" 38 spl LSWCHP...known to work to the extent that most users have a reasonable comfort level with th' thing...

44s Rock

Does the premium ammo kill the bad guys any deader than the old Silvertips or the Gold Dots?? Thatt's all I've caried for home and city defense. Snake loads and hardcast or meteal jacket for woods. Seems to work for me. Got all ny Deer with good old Remington Core-lokt.

tx gun runner

All my hollow point I load to over 1000 fps . I shoot 185 gr HP at 1025 fps in 45 ACP , which seem to work great for me since I shoot only what I load except for 40 SW ...

Taurus_9mm

I recall seeing a video of a guy using generic Remington 9mm 115 gr. hollow points on various mediums to test penetration and expansion. From what I remember the no-frills hollow points performed about as well as the more expensive fodder available. If I had to utilize the same ammo he was using in a self-defense situation I don't think I'd feel better off with the premium $1-a-shot stuff. If there is any improvement by the high end ammo I feel it's only marginal at best.

tx gun runner

Save your 1 gal milk jugs , fill them with water and shoot them around 20 yds . You will see which ammo work the best on a humans , screw the penetration test . CCW don't need to shoot threw car door and crap . The 185 hp 45 acp over 1000 fps is far better then a 230 fmj on them jugs . Since my life is on the line , only the ammo I loaded is in my carry gun .

gunman42782

Wise choices, one and all. It is hard to beat Winchester Silvertips, Federal Hydro-Shocks, and Remington Core-lokt.

sheepdog

...Core-Lokt, Silvertip, Gold Dot(Golden Saber a close 2nd), and the ole 158grLSWCHP +P(Rem being the softest lead...Georgia Arms being the cheapest bulk prices I've found)...I have a few Glasers around...haven't tried Corbon's rockets or the all-coppers...Speer's got a new one that's bonded...forget the name...if it's Speer, it's good....still comes back to bullet placement...

deputy125

now if i am buying rifle ammo off the shelf, the remington cor-lokt is certainly top hand......right along with hornady interlock.

rifleammo at less than $20/box is sure more attractive and works just as well in my area as that $40/box nickel plated special coating computer enginered super wonder bullets.............

problem................the cor-lokts and silvertips always sell out first as they are good and economical.........

the shelves are usualy stocked with whatever expensive super ammo is left behind.....usually some sort of wincehster premium or federal partition load......simple pure economics.

buddy is in a fix again at the moment. he obtained a used NEF handi rifle in 22-250 ( for $100 dollars!!!!!!!) which is a very popular deer round here in Texas. Not a single box of ammo to be found in the entire county........completely sold out.

in the big city, Academy sports was also sold out of 22-250.......wallyworld only had some 40 gr hp stuff......he passed until someone gets in some jacketed sp's........