sheepdog

...you must know some Indians I don't...if Native Americans'd had those...it'd been a different story!!!

Machinist

D-Day landing at Plymouth Rock?

this one was made in 1966 and I think they made them into the early 70's.
pete

some info I found on these 7.62 rifles.

Ishapore Arsenal Rifles 2A and 2A1 in 7.62x51 mm ( Re-Post of a 2004 article )
By: Robert J. Summerhill

Since the importation of these rifles ten years ago, there has been much discussion on the
safety of shooting the rifles. The mind set of cheap, brass, cast mantle nick knacks and ash trays came to mind when you mention a rifle made in India. This notion could not be further from the truth. You need to ask yourself, “What army would send their troops into harms way with an unsafe firearm?” The matter of the fact is that the armory at Ishapore, India did extensive testing of the rifle that would become the model 2A and the 2A1. Why these rifles came into existence was a matter of necessity. The ex-commonwealth of Brittan wanted to join the NATO alliance and use the new standard round for combat, the 7.62 x 51 mm round. Half of the free world was using the newly adopted rifle the FAL and the English variant, the L1A1. These rifles were being manufactured and adopted around the Free World during this time India was having major problems with its neighbors, Pakistan . Many bloody skirmishes were playing out along India’s vast borders. Ramping up with the new FAL rifle was just not possible due to tooling and manufacturing processing limitations at the Ishapore and Dum Dum arsenals. What these arsenals could do, and do very well was to make the tried and true No.1 Mark III type rifle in this newly adopted caliber. Testing of the SMLE’s standard type receiver soon proved to it be too soft allowing stretching and bolt locking. The engineers decided to start from ground zero and redesign the rifle as a new variant of the latter rifle. First off the receiver’s steel was up graded to Chrome Vanadium and hardened to a higher degree than previous rifles. The bolt head and extractor was reshaped to take a rimless cartridge and changes to the rifles stock and sights were made. A special barrel was designed to provide the best accuracy for a bolt action rifle in this caliber. A new trigger guard and a special 12 shot magazine was developed for these rifles. Why the Indian arsenals did not use the FAL type magazine is a question still left unanswered. Extensive testing of these rifles was undertaken and the results showed the rifles were strong, reliable, and accurate out to 800 yards and further. These rifles soon proved themselves with the firefights against the Chinese and the Pakistanis along with other warring factions the Indian Army had to deal with along its borders.

Having a keen interest with these rifles, I wanted to know just how strong these rifles really are. I send letters to several Proof Houses, and the Imperial War Museum in England along with letters and phone calls to the Consulates for India here in the U.S.A looking for a source of any records or arsenal workers that may still be alive when these rifles were made. I was able to receive data from one of the British Proof houses denoting just how strong these rifles are. The British government also made variations of the Enfield rifle in 7.62 x 51 mm for evaluation in the 50’s. The standard “Proof Load” for the British rifle in 7.62 x 51 mm is 29 tons per square inch on the low side and 31 tons per square inch on the high side. The Indian manufactured rifles passed the proof testing with no discernible problems what so ever. This translates into 58,000 and 62,000 pounds per square inch. These load are the standard proof load for all 7.62 x 51 mm rifles.( specifications changed in 1959 ) I continued digging deeper for the maximum pressure these rifles could withstand, I did come across several reports of failures while these rifles were deployed in the field. Most failures were rifles fired with the barrels plugged with mud or snow. While the barrels failed and burst, there is no record of an action ever failing. The rest were problems with ammunition itself and not the rifle. Anyone who has purchased the surplus Indian 7.62 x 51 mm ammo within the last two summers found the ammunition to be loaded with ball powder, flake powder, Cordite or loose and bent bullets. Some cases had no powder what so ever, others had excessive powder charges that were dangerous. Thankfully this ammunition is all but gone from the market.

All of the rifles with the barrel obstructions had the barrels burst around six inches forward of the chamber. On some of rifles the stock splintered. One report stated of a minor injury to the shooter’s supporting arm from wood splinters. At no time did any receiver/bolt fail, crack or other wise become unserviceable. It has been calculated that these pressures were in excess of 100,000 psi. The receivers held together. After asking questions in England and India, I could find no documented proof of any receiver ever failing. There has been however, reports of excessive headspaceing on rifles that have been sold on the surplus market. These rifles may have been parts guns cobbled together for a quick buck. While I have not held any of these rifles, or even seen one that may have a headspace problem I would say if in doubt have your rifle checked out by a Gunsmith.

By the early 1970’s the 2A and 2A1 rifles were delegated to the countries reserve forces and Indian Police Forces. These rifles were still being used in the 1980’s officially. This fact makes the SMLE type rifle used by a countries Army the longest in history. 100 years. Our Army fighting in Iraq and Pakistan still find these rifles being used by the Terrorists.

On a note of safety, Americans love to dabble in the “black arts” of reloading ammunition. Some folks may get themselves into trouble with this NATO round if mishandling of the loading data occurs. The 7.62 x 51 mm cartridge is the same dimensionally as the .308 Winchester, but they are structurally different.

The walls of the 7.62 x 51 mm casing are thicker. This will cause the room for the burning propellant’s gas to be less than in the casing of the .308 Winchester. Pressure will build up to an excessive amount very quickly. So much so that this factor can cause pressures on the upper end of the load data for the .308 Winchester to exceed SAMI standards. These pressures could cause a case failure/rupture and could possibly damage the rifle or the shooter. The normal operating pressure for the 7.62 x 51 is 55,000-60,000 psi depending on the country that loaded the ammo and the type of projectile. Load data for the .308 using the 7.62 x 51 mm brass can exceed the safe calculated pressures due to the sudden pressure spike on some loadings causing a case failure/rupture. There are countless articles on this problem on the Internet.

There should be no reason what so ever to worry about shooting these rifles using any normal as issued NATO loading. Commercial factory loaded 308 Winchester rounds made by the major ammunition companies maintaining the original specifications for this round are well within the safe pressures for these rifles.
************************************************** ******************
Safety Note on Non-Ishapor Recent Imported .308 Enfield Rifles
************************************************** ******************
Since I wrote this article there have been imports of early Enfield rifle that are not 1960's RIA or similar Ishapor made rifles. These are the test rifles that Britain found were not safe to shoot. If you have these rifles do not shoot them with NATO 7.62x51mm or commercial .308 ammo.

Et2ss

Really? An Ishy? Next thing you know you'll be riding an Indain made thumper


Good score Pete! Helluva price.

if you ever see me driving one of the pot metal indian motorcycles,just shoot me. I would have to find a extra big brown paper bag that would fit over my helmet with 2 slots for my eyes just to test drive one of those one lung oil leaking pot metal specials :P .
pete

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/model ... ic-c5.html

JOHNNY WACKO

762 nato = 308 you should have known that Bh.. :P :P :P
Indian with a dot not a feather..I hate that saying
Nice rifle pete

sheepdog

...now I'm confoosed...I remember Indian motorcycles when I was a kid...are you guys talkin' 'bout them or do they actually make motorcycles in India???

Machinist

They make the Enfield motorcycle in India. No relation to the Indian motorcycle which was American. The Enfield was British. The motorcycle they are talking about is a modern version of a post war 500 cc single cylinder British bike. The factory in India was built to fill foreign orders, like the Argentinian factory built by Colt to make 1911 / 1927s . I don't think Enfields are still made in England.

sheepdog

...thanks, Mac...I didn't know Colt built guns in Argentina, either...never too old to learn sumpin'...

Machinist

Back when Argentina had an economy they were big purchasers of handguns for their police and military. They placed big orders with Colt but wanted them produced there. Colt built the assembly lines, shipped them there, set them up, and trained the workers. These were licensed copies that were made to the same standards and most parts would interchange. They later had other local companies produce cheapened copies like the Ballester-Molina. I have read speculation that the Springfield 1911s were originally made on this equipment, purchased as surplus by Springfield, but I have not seen this confirmed. I believe something similar was done with the Browning HP and the Beretta 92 when these were adopted there. I think this is why Taurus was licensed to make copies of them. I don't remember the provenance of these stories so they could be wrong.

The Colt factory is solid though. They were imported a while back and were excellent 1911s. Many custom guns were built on them before all the clones were available.

sheepdog

...so were they frames or complete guns that were imported here...and are any Colt products still made in Arg.???

Machinist

Colt didn't make the guns. They set up the production lines and trained the workers. The guns were made under license. The ones imported were surplus after they were replaced by HPs and Berettas in 9mm. I don't know if Springfield is still using the equipment, assuming they ever did. I think the frames are imported because they are forgings, where the other parts can be machined from billets. I'm guessing there.