Cast&Blast

Gotcha.

Machinist

Nite Ryder, I'm glad you posted this. An excellent observation from an under viewed perspective. Thank you, Sir.

Machinist

In reference to the 9mm, .380, .357 Magnum.

When the .357 first came into use in LE it was good for Troopers as it could penetrate coachwork and disable motors. In anti-personnel use it had terrible overpenetration with the original 158 gr SWC at 1400 fps. It transferred too little power to the BG and carried far too much out the back. When police used it in 4" barrels it dropped to 1100 to 1200 fps and the hollow points of the day did not perform reliably, making them just as bad. The Remington 125 gr JHP at 1400+ fps from a 4" revolver transformed it into the standard by which all other handgun cartridges are judged. It was a hard load to handle with ferocious flash, blast, and recoil but it had the velocity to give dynamic energy transfer with plenty of penetration as well. It is a better man stopper than the .44 magnum.

The 9mm is a marginal load. According to Mashall and Sanow's work it is effective with the very best loads from medium or full length barrels. These are +P+ loads that push a 115 grain JHP at 1250+ fps. These loads manage to combine adequate expansion and adequate penetration to give good results in normal conditions but there is no reserve on either side of the compromise so any problem, such as clothes clogging the hollow point, greatly reduces their effectiveness. The standard pressure loads and the subsonics have shown poor performance with over penetration. The best loads in .40 and .45 have been in the small group of loads that approach the record of the 125 gr .357 mag. These have a sufficient reserve of energy to stray a bit on either side of the balance point and still give good performance. They also can overcome problems and still have enough suds to do the job.

The 9mm is better than the .380 with the best loads and when it performs properly, but if the bullet does not perform well enough the extra energy is carried out the back and there is little difference to the BG from the .380 as both will penetrate in a front on shoot.

In the .40 S&W I use a +P load, the 135 gr Cor-bon as it is in that small group at the top. The 155gr probably makes more sense for LE as they need penetration on buildings and coachwork. In .45 I like the standard pressure 230 gr Hydro-shock. The results are as good or better than the +P and I can practice with cheap (gulp) hardball and the feel and POI are the same. Even if the .45 does not expand, the big, heavy bullet has a good reputation as a fight stopper. The .45 or .44 are the only calibers I would feel comfortable carrying with nonexpanding bullets.

sheepdog

...I, being a bit wimpy and timid, have never enjoyed the .357...carried them for years in 2 1/2", 2 3/4", and 4"...carried 158gr. Norma JHP, Rem 125gr. JHP, and Glaser blue...I don't like the flash, bang, or kick on any of them....I have a M65 3" now...would trade it in a heartbeat for a 2" or 3" M64 round butt...all I carry in it are the Rem 158gr SWCHP+P, the FBI load or Chicago load...a very high rated .38 that is very controllable even in a 2" J....being able to stay or get back on target for the second shot is too important to me to carry a heavy kicker...used the .41 Mag for awhile......I keep coming back to the .45ACP(with .44Spl or .45 Colt as close seconds)for my favorite round....usually 230Gr Gold Dots or 200Gr. Gold Dots...both JHP....IF I can't get to my shotgun...I own one 9mm...a KP95DC...just to have a 9mm that's able to feed any "donated" ammo adversaries may not have used up should there ever be a conflict....I've had my then 12-year-old boy outshoot me with my P90 and P97...and a coupla non-shooting women pick up the P97 and do wonders with the first clip...then tell me how easy it is....I believe a man can carry a P97 anywhere he can carry a P95 and be that much better armed...weight of the .45 is comparable when the 9 is a hi-cap mag....but, then, I'm just an OOF!!!

Machinist

Wow!

I agree about the FBI load though I prefer Federal or Winchester. I use them in all my .38s and mid frame .357s except my Bodyguard, which can't use lead bullets. I have a 3" M65 with round but that I like a lot. It is loaded with FBI loads as my office gun. I find the K frame the closest to ideal for double action control but it is light for full magnums, though I like the capability.

I had a Taurus Pt-908 single stack 9mm and recently bought a Sig P-239 in 9mm. The 9mm is the cheapest and most common round as well as being the military round, so I wanted a reliable and accurate pistol that I could count on should that be all I can find. I do not have or desire a high capacity 9mm. I have better control, especially for the double action first round, with the slimmer grips and I don't feel the need for such firepower.

I first shoot a .45 ACP when I was 11 years old and have been in love with it since. It is the best combat pistol cartridge ever made in my opinion.

I like the .40 and it has become THE police round. The only .40 I have is a Taurus Pt-100. I was planning to get another Sig P-239 in .40 S&W for when I can carry something bugger than a J frame. I have become less comfortable about cocked and locked carry and have more faith in the newer double action lockworks from Sig and others, so I thought this would be better than my Officers Model. I am undecided now but in any case I will want a good compact .40 for the same reason as the 9mm, to be able to use the ammo that is available.

One other consideration is that I am starting to have trouble with arthritis in my hands. This may force a lighter cartridge in the smaller guns.

sheepdog

...I use the Remington version because the lead's softer than the Winch. or Fed. ...might expand better at the short barrel velocity...I lwant the M64 2" because it's some lighter than the M65 3"...and I like it for a backup...keep hearing the M65 is rare but haven't found a trade yet...I'd trade even just to get the .38...I tried .40 in a Glock 22---didn't like the gun...the round is fine...I favored the 135gr....

...you may want to check out the Kahr .45-small and potent...the trigger is easy and short...if recoil/arthritis becomes a problem...the new .327 Mag and a 6-shot may give you a good package...haven't fired it yet...my hands get sore but next day are better...Mom was wrong...she said if I popped my knuckles.......you know the rest.....

Machinist

I have been thinking of checking out the Kahr in .40 S&W. I had avoided the DAO autos as the triggers were bad but the Sig is much better than I remembered. I think the Kahr would be fine, and you can get night sights and laser grips for them. These are all pluses as my eyes fade. I do have a strong preference for exposed hammers but maybe I just need to get with the times. The Sig, the small CZ, and some of the others look interesting. If I stay with .45 I will probably stay with the Colt as I like the handling and feel.

The Remingtons were the first I tried and they are OK, I have only a slight preference for the others.

I am fine with specials or 9mms, and the .45s are no problem in the heavier guns. I need some range time with the alloy Officers model. If that is still OK then a .40 will be no problem. I never did much like the .357 in lighter revolvers though the capability is nice. Like you I put placement of a good load over power, so I like the FBI loads.

Wizard

I have the Kahr CW9, and am really impressed with the accuracy, and ease of shooting this particular weapon.....so I naturally wanted the CW45....I tried two different ones at a local shop, back in md December, and could barely rack the slide on either weapon....Kahrs are traditionally very tight before breakin, but that was just way too tight.....my CW9 is really easy to conceal, but, I'm really wanting a .45acp for carry....now, to find one that is affordable, and is still easy to conceal.....

sheepdog

Taurus has a new one coming out...April, I think...small and trim...

Snuffy

Learn something everyday nice read. I realy love my 45 colt just for sure stopping power. I do have other guns I two 9's that I love to shoot. Back then ammo was cheap not so now. I love my sigg in 40 I am feeding it Federal Premium LEO 180 gr. I am told that is what DPS and Game Wardens are carrying these days.